[00:01] Announcer:
Welcome to Principal Center Radio, helping you build capacity for instructional leadership. Here's your host, Director of the Principal Center, Dr. Justin Bader. Welcome everyone to Principal Center Radio.
[00:13] SPEAKER_00:
I'm your host, Justin Bader, and I'm honored to welcome back to the program, Mike Anderson. Mike is a full-time education consultant who works with diverse schools across the United States and beyond. He was a classroom teacher for 15 years and then a responsive classroom consultant and developer for six years. He's the author of many books about great teaching and learning, including Tackling the Motivation Crisis, How to Activate Student Learning Without Behavior Charts, Pizza Parties, or Other Hard-to-Quit Incentive Systems.
[00:41] Announcer:
And now, our feature presentation.
[00:43] SPEAKER_00:
Mike, welcome back to Principal Center Radio.
[00:45] SPEAKER_01:
Thank you, Justin. So happy to join you again.
[00:48] SPEAKER_00:
I'm excited to talk about student motivation because, you know, I think we've all heard the distinction between intrinsic and extrinsic motivation, but we've also heard advice to use extrinsic motivation because to all appearances, it works at least temporarily. Help us understand the dilemma with extrinsic motivation because I think everybody understands intrinsic is better. Extrinsic, we have to be careful. So what's going on there?
[01:14] SPEAKER_01:
Yeah, in some ways you nailed it just in your little intro lead into what you want me to talk about, which is that extrinsic motivation, which is motivation that comes from without. It's the kind of motivation that we do to other people. So we get them to do what we want by offering them bribes or incentives. If you do this, then you'll get this. Or we threaten them with some scary consequence. If you don't do this, then this bad thing will happen.
[01:37]
Extrinsic motivation tends to work really well in the short term. So if our goal is temporary compliance, Extrinsic motivators are the way to go. The problem with them is that they unravel intrinsic motivation in the long run. Intrinsic motivation is the motivation that comes from the inside. We have a bunch of psychological needs that can motivate us from within. We have a need for autonomy, for power and control.
[02:03]
We have a need for belonging, for competence. We feel really good about ourselves and we'll work really hard when we think we're going to be successful. Purpose is really important. When we know our why, we can engage in work with a lot of vigor and energy. Curiosity and fun are a couple of others. So these are the kinds of motivations that really do lead to greater learning and even better behavior in the long run.
[02:26]
So the danger of using extrinsic motivators is that they will buy you short-term compliance, but they diminish intrinsic motivation and make people less interested in learning or less interested in doing the right thing for the right reason in the long run.
[02:38] SPEAKER_00:
the right thing for the right reason. And I think often when we talk about reading, we want students to develop a love of reading and not just read because we tell them to. Because we know that the amount that we can make them read is not really enough, right? They need to become intrinsically motivated readers. Help us understand your thinking about why that matters for behavior, because adult life is full of extrinsic systems of reinforcement, like speeding tickets and toll roads and congestion pricing. And we have all these extrinsic motivators that as adults motivate us to behave in certain ways and avoid other behaviors that we might otherwise be tempted to, like driving too fast.
[03:20]
And I don't think any of us spend too much time worrying about the fact that we may not or that the other drivers on the road may not be intrinsically motivated not to drive 100 miles an hour. Why does it matter for student behavior in the classroom that intrinsic motivation is better in some way?
[03:39] SPEAKER_01:
So let's play around with the speeding analogy that you were just mentioning. So I'm going to ask you a personal question. Do you speed? Just a little bit. Just a little bit. So if the speed limits to 65, how fast do you go?
[03:51] SPEAKER_00:
I feel like I should go somewhere between like 65 and 72 to not be rude to the other drivers. But if it's, you know, too much, it starts to feel wrong.
[04:00] SPEAKER_01:
Starts to feel wrong. Oh, that's interesting. Why does it feel wrong?
[04:04] SPEAKER_00:
It feels dangerous, I guess, that it's not wise, that it's unsafe.
[04:08] SPEAKER_01:
So that's interesting because I would argue then that your motivation is intrinsic. You didn't say that I don't go over 72 because I'm worried I'm going to get a ticket, which is actually what often people say is, well, I know I can go six or seven over and nobody's going to stop me for going just a little bit over the speed limit. But if you go 77 in a 65, then you might get stopped for speeding. That's often people's rationale for why they don't speed or why they do speed is they say, well, I know I can speed some, which shows that actually the extrinsic motivation tends to lead to that kind of low level moral thinking, which is how much can I get away with it without being caught? Which is the exact same kind of motivations that we're encouraging kids to consider in schools if we use incentive systems and reward systems for good behavior. If we say to kids, if you do a good deed and we catch you being good, we'll give you a cougar buck if the school mascots the cougar.
[05:04]
We'll give you a cougar buck if we catch you picking up a piece of trash on the floor and throwing it away without being asked. Well, what we're saying is that the reason you should pick up trash is not for the good of the school and not to be thoughtful of other people or to keep the school clean. It's because you might get something for it. You can trade that cougar buck in for a trinket at the school store. So when we use incentive systems as the reason behind good behavior in school, we're actually encouraging low-level moral reasoning. It's kind of at the lowest level of Kohlberg's moral hierarchy, if you're familiar at all with that framework.
[05:38]
And kids would rightly say, well, there's a piece of trash on the floor, but nobody's looking at me right now, so why should I bother picking up? Because I'm not going to get something for it. So if we want kids to develop more robust, deeper, higher level moral pathways of thinking, then we have to not encourage them with the threat of punishments or the promise of rewards in daily behavior systems in school.
[06:03] SPEAKER_00:
Now, thinking about the backstop that's there, for someone who feels no qualms about trying to drive 140 miles an hour on the freeway, there absolutely is the threat of punishment. You might have your car impounded, you might lose your license if you drive in a particularly unsafe way. And the police officer who makes that decision may not really care whether the driver was intrinsically motivated or whether any drivers are intrinsically motivated to do the right thing, to drive safely. In the classroom, we have obviously much more complex things going on. It's not a law enforcement situation. It's a learning community.
[06:41]
And we want students to, as much as possible, be driven by intrinsic motivation. Let's talk a little, if we could, about those incentive systems that we've all heard work. You're going to get certain types of results if you put some sort of pizza party incentive in place. If you put the marble jar in place, the marbles go in for good behavior, the marbles come out for bad behavior. And when the jar is full, there's a pizza party. I think we've all experienced this somewhere in life.
[07:08]
We've all thought about implementing such a system. Maybe we've regretted implementing such a system when all we hear about is stupid marbles and it's like... Actually like to talk about the subject. Thank you very much.
[07:19]
Take us into, you know, kind of how those work and what goes wrong with those systems at the classroom level to incentivize students to behave in a certain way.
[07:29] SPEAKER_01:
Yeah. So first of all, just to go back to your speeding analogy with a person driving 140 on the highway, if we've got a kid who's running crazy fast on the hallways, we also shouldn't care in the moment about whether they're intrinsically or extrinsically motivated to do the right thing. We've got to tell them to stop and maybe even have them go back and try it again. So consequences are a really important part of a discipline system in a school because we do need those those hard stops that say to kids, nope, that's not okay, and we're going to help you do better. So if you're interested, we could get into some different kinds of consequences and which ones might be appropriate. But in thinking about the incentive system, so as you're saying, when we use that marble jar and we've regretted it, and I have totally used systems like that marble jar and have regretted it, what we're doing is we're encouraging kids to think, what's in it for me?
[08:17]
What will I get for it if I do the right thing? which is usually not the kind of classroom environment we're trying to create. Usually we've got classroom rules, and especially at the elementary and middle school level in particular, and at the high school level too, to some degree, teachers are often encouraged to have their kids have a hand in shaping the rules of the classroom. You know, let's spend some time at the beginning of the year thinking about what our goals are for the year and what kinds of rules we want to have together that will help us reach for those good goals that we have. And so if we have this sort of community commitment to classroom rules, then we want to make sure that we're helping kids think about good rule following behavior, not just in the terms of, will I get a pizza party if I do the rule, but am I following through on my responsibility to my classmates? That's the kind of classroom environment where we actually help develop skills of higher level moral thinking and community commitment, which are not only good for learning in the classroom, but I would argue are good for
[09:15]
our citizens as we think about kids moving outside of school and participating in communities outside of a school.
[09:22] SPEAKER_00:
A lot of people will say at this point, but Mike, these kids, they don't care. I haven't figured out how to make them care. So I need the pizza party. I need the marble jar. And I think that, you know, that realization often hits people kind of painfully that like, I wish my kids were intrinsically motivated. I wish I had figured out some way to create that motivation, but I haven't, I haven't been able to do that.
[09:43]
So now I'm going to go down the road of the marble jar. Now I'm going to hold the bribe of the pizza party over their heads and try to at least get some behaviors that are compatible with learning in order to make some progress, even if it's not the best case scenario of intrinsic motivation. So for people who are feeling stuck and like students don't have that intrinsic motivation, what are some steps that they can take if things aren't in great shape to start to turn things around a little bit?
[10:10] SPEAKER_01:
It's so interesting you talk about how some kids don't care and some kids will even tell us, I don't care. I actually just wrote a blog post about that a few weeks ago because that's something I hear all the time in schools. And I've heard my former students when I was in the classroom sometimes articulate that too. One thing that I will say to educators is even for the kid who says, I don't care, I don't believe him or her. I really believe that we are hardwired to care. We're hardwired for empathy.
[10:36]
Those intrinsic motivators I mentioned before of autonomy and competence and belonging and purpose, those are psychological needs that all humans have. We all have a need to have at least some power and control over what we do or how we do it. We have a need to belong to a community and connect with other people. So I don't believe that kids don't care. I do believe that sometimes kids can be put into systems which make it harder to care or easier to say you don't care. And interestingly, one of the systems you can put kids into, which will get them there, is we can use incentive systems with them.
[11:10]
Because the incentive systems say, it doesn't matter if you care or not, just do the right thing and you'll get the goodie. I mean, studies have shown over and over and over again, and our own experience has shown us that when kids experience those year after year after year, they develop a much more egocentric, self-centered way of viewing the world. They'll say, is it graded when we are talking about an activity before they're willing to try? They don't do that until they get grades. It's grades that get them thinking about, is it worth it for me to do this? We ask you to pick up a piece of trash and they say, what do I get for it?
[11:42]
Kids only do that once they've been taught to view the world through that selfish lens of what do I get? So one of the things we can do is not use those systems. And instead, make sure that we're creating classroom communities that emphasize relationship and community. Our daily language plays a huge role in that. When we say to our class, okay, everybody, let's walk quietly down the hall. Hey, let's think about how can we make sure that we're able to talk with each other and whisper quietly in the hallway so you can chat with friends as you're walking down to art, but also make sure we're taking care of the kids in their classrooms.
[12:16]
so that we're not disturbing kids who are learning in other places. Just simply using language like that is this little message that we're giving to kids that says, you should care about the other kids in other classrooms. So part of it is we have to build these school cultures in which caring about other people is woven into the fabric of everything we do. And I think part of that has to start with the adults actually believing that deep down kids do want to be good for the sake of being good. They want to do well for the sake of doing well. They want to take care of each other.
[12:46]
Because when we believe that they don't, that's when it's really easy for us to slide into those systems of, we're going to bribe you to get you to do it. Now, that being said, every now and then, it might be appropriate to use one of those systems in a really short-term way. For a class that is totally out of control, let's say that a teacher went on maternity leave in November, and that class has had a series of substitutes come in who don't have good management skills, who aren't building relationships, and the kids are an absolute zoo. We might need to put a marble jar in place just to get some semblance of order, and then we can start talking with the class about how do we wean ourselves off of that. So for example, in my own teaching, when I used one of those systems and then I saw it creating self-centeredness and even unethical behavior, kids were stealing
[13:37]
They were these little chips that we had in these individual country crock butter dishes that I had at the middle of every group of four kids. They were sort of competing against each other for the reward of going out to pizza. Kids started stealing chips from each other's dishes. Once I saw that, I was like, oh my gosh, this is totally not working. So I got rid of the dishes, but I set up a weekly rotation where every four weeks or every six weeks, every group was going to go out to pizza. So we kept the pizza party part.
[14:06]
We kept the reward. They just didn't have to earn it and they couldn't lose it. And then I was able to talk with them about strategies for how to keep ourselves in control. I spent more time teaching some of the social and emotional skills, skills that kids need in order to be successful, like self-regulation and managing impulsivity and working together. It's almost like we've got to create systems that value intrinsic motivation over extrinsic motivation so that we use extrinsic motivators as a last resort and only in really short-term ways.
[14:38] SPEAKER_00:
Yeah, very well said. And I feel like one of the things that's easy to forget when we're thinking about these systems and putting them in place is that kids are good at optimizing for whatever they want at the moment. Kids can pull the levers and act very rationally to get whatever reward we set up, Even if it means stealing the chips, even if it means kind of undermining the point of the system, surely stealing was not an outcome that you had in mind when you designed the system. That was not your intent at all.
[15:09] SPEAKER_01:
Well, and adults do the same thing. Think of performance enhancing drugs in sports. Why would people put their long-term health in jeopardy except that it leads to wealth that could set themselves and their families up for generations? I'd like to think that I would do the right thing if I were in that position, but if by injecting anabolic steroids into my body, I could make $250 million for 10 years for playing baseball, that's a hard dilemma to navigate. There are companies that fudge quarterly reports in order to meet the goals that shareholders want. I was sharing some examples like this with a school leader once, and she said, yeah, just think about how we all cheat on our taxes.
[15:49]
I thought, yikes, I don't cheat on my taxes, but I guess some people do. So I think that we're all good at, you know, maximizing the benefits that are in front of us. And it's not just kids who might work the system to get what they want. And so that's often a challenge of those systems is that when we put them in place, kids figure out how to get what they want. And that means they're often playing the system instead of thinking about how being kind for the sake of other people's feelings or being respectful and responsible because it's how we're all going to work together as a team to do great learning this year. Yeah.
[16:27] SPEAKER_00:
Now, Mike, how do you think about the role of discipline, both at the classroom level and at the school level and that kind of backstop that we have? Because certainly if we see very unsafe behavior, if we see bullying and harassment, if we see things that just are really incompatible with the kind of learning environment we're trying to create, we can't just look at that and say, well, Gosh, I hope that kid develops some intrinsic motivation. And until they do, I'm just going to let them, you know, figure things out for themselves. I'm just going to let that happen. We know we can't do that, but what do we do?
[16:58] SPEAKER_01:
Yeah, you're so right, because that's so important. I'll tell you a story from my own classroom. It was one year when I was teaching fifth grade. A parent called me up one night and said, Mr. Anderson, I just wanted to let you know that my son Devin told me something that was kind of concerning today, and I thought you should know about it. He let me know that another student in the room, whose name I won't use, told him that he was going to stab him through the tongue with a knife and put a lock on it.
[17:21]
And Devin was concerned about that. I said, yeah, I'm concerned about that too. Thank you so much for letting me know about that. So I talked to Devin the next day. He told me that another kid had also been told something scary. I started asking around.
[17:33]
For at least two weeks, another fifth grader in my classroom had been saying really scary, horrible things to kids, including to a student in my class who was Jewish. This kid said to him, when I grew up, I'm going to be the next Hitler and you're going to be the first person I kill. Oh my gosh. So once we found that out, I immediately went to the principal, let her know what was going on. And that fifth grader was pulled from my classroom immediately because holy cow, that was time to get into damage control mode. So he actually spent a few days outside of my classroom in an in-school suspension.
[18:10]
We didn't send him home because guess where some of that stuff was coming from. So putting him into that environment where he would experience it more was not going to be good. He was not allowed to come back into my classroom until he had had a meeting with the principal, the school resource officer, his mother, and his grandmother. who in their family was kind of the matriarch of the family so that they could all talk with the student about how important this was and how not OK it was. That gave me time in my classroom to have a couple of class meetings with my fifth graders about how do you know when to tell an adult? when something's going on?
[18:45]
What's the difference between tattling on something little and telling an adult when there's something scary going on? And how do we also help take care of our student when he comes back? I mean, we had open conversations because everybody in the class knew what was going on at this point. So I also want in my class to think about how do we take care of ourselves and make sure that we're being safe, but also take care of our classmate when he comes back because he's going to be embarrassed. He's going to feel some shame probably. So how do we make sure that we include him as a classmate once he comes back while also still taking care of ourselves?
[19:21]
So having something like an in-school suspension for a kid who's done something really dangerous is important if we use it as an opportunity to help the kid learn from what's happened, make a plan for moving forward, help other kids reset and recalibrate. So we're not using it as a punishment. It's not meant as a deterrent. You know, you did this bad thing, so now we're going to do something bad to you and that'll teach you. But instead, we use something like an in-school suspension as part of a plan for helping a kid get on a better track. I think that's a really important part of the discipline system.
[19:56]
I can give you another example. I had a kid once, a fifth grader, I won't tell you the whole story. He was coming from a really, really rough spot, a family that had melted down, a dad had moved cross country. One morning before school, this kid, while he was supposed to be waiting for his dad in the pickup truck, while the dad had a meeting with me, He put himself in the driver's seat of his dad's pickup truck and decided to fix his dad's parking job and did $5,000 damage to the district librarian's car. Oh my gosh. So what do you do for that?
[20:26]
First of all, there's no need to have a harsh punishment here. The kid had just been in a car accident. He'd had a natural consequence that was terrifying. But what we did do was set him up as an after-school helper for a week with the district librarian so that he could come into school and work for an hour each afternoon for five days to try and make up for the damage he'd done and the hurt he'd caused so that he could kind of feel a sense of, you know, I'm making amends and I'm helping to repair this thing that happened. So I think consequences are really important and we've got to have those full stops in schools, but we don't need to make them into punishments where the goal is to make the kid hurt with the idea that the more they hurt, the better they'll behave. That's such an old fashioned way of thinking about discipline and we know it doesn't work.
[21:13] SPEAKER_00:
Brings me to a question that I've been wanting to ask about the adult attitudes. And I'm thinking especially about maybe people at the secondary level. And I know you've done a ton of work with responsive classroom, which I think has been just tremendously impactful, especially at the elementary level and up into the middle grades. But there are a lot of people who just kind of don't have that language or don't have that way of thinking about how to help kids grow and make good decisions without that mindset of punishment, you know, the kind of old school way of thinking. So for our audience who's looking for ways to help other adults think beyond those terms, what advice might you have?
[21:53] SPEAKER_01:
Boy, that's a tough question, Justin. It's hard because adult mindsets are not easily shifted. And they come from our backgrounds. They come from the way we were raised. They come from the school experiences we had, the families we grew up in, the faith communities that we live in. I mean, they're so complex.
[22:12]
And in my work as a consultant in schools, it's one of the things that I often... work at helping in a school. I work at helping adults make some shifts. One of the things that I've found that helps is to try and make sure to go really slowly as a school leader.
[22:29]
So if you've got an adult who is set in this mindset of, I need a pound of flesh, You know, the kid did something bad, so something bad needs to happen to the kid. We need to get the kid to feel pain and we need revenge on that kid. To help the adult move slowly in their thinking and understanding about that. One of the things that I often do in schools, especially when I'm doing a bigger body of work in a school, is we'll spend time as a faculty surfacing what our positive beliefs are about teaching and learning and kids. Instead of focusing on what do we think should happen when something happens with discipline. We start by thinking, what are some of the positive beliefs we have about kids and learning and discipline?
[23:10]
What I often find is that when we surface those as a faculty, some themes emerge. Very often, faculties on the whole believe that, as a general rule, kids wanna do well. Kids wanna do the right thing. So if we've got a kid who's not doing well, there's something getting in their way. It's not that kids don't wanna do well. Once we surface some of those positive beliefs, then we can start to say, okay, so if we believe that kids want to do well, if we believe that most kids want to be in a safe environment in school, if we believe that learning should be awesome and fun.
[23:43]
Now let's take a look at some of the practices we have in our school and figure out which ones align with that. I remember there was one school in particular I was working with where the school was very much, there was a huge ingrained practice there of punishment and reward. It was a K through eight school. They did a lot of detentions. They used suspensions. Kids missed recess.
[24:05]
And there were lots of sticker charts and behavior charts and token economy system set up in the school, when we surfaced teachers' positive beliefs, one of the things that they said that they believed that sort of came across from the whole school was we believe that kids want to do well. Once we had that belief stated, I was then able to say, well, so let's not change anything yet, but let's start to think about the practices of using incentive systems. Because incentive systems are based on the belief that kids don't want to do well. and that we have to bribe them to get them to want to do well, that we have to shift their motivation. Well, if you've got the belief that kids already wanna do well, incentive systems don't quite line up with the belief. So I actually said to the school, don't take away your behavior charts yet.
[24:52]
Let's just think about it and we'll come back to it in a month or two. And what was really interesting was I told them, don't take down your behavior charts. Apparently right after that faculty meeting, A whole bunch of people went up to the principal and said, Mike said we have to take down our behavior charts. But then when I went back a couple of weeks later and I asked the leadership team I was working with how things were going, they said that most of the colleagues that they knew had taken down their behavior charts voluntarily once they realized that that practice didn't actually align with their positive belief. So sometimes it's about opening up these conversations and giving people permission to think about it slowly and deliberately, to not force change before people are ready, but to kind of get the ball moving forward. in the direction you want it to go in so that change can happen over time.
[25:37] SPEAKER_00:
You brought that up, because that was what I was going to ask about next. Because I've seen over and over again, people will hear, oh, x is bad, so take away x. And it's kind of like saying, well, it's that leg of your table that's missing that's propped up by cinder blocks. That looks kind of ugly, so take those cinder blocks away. Well, I would like to have a better table leg there, but I need something. I can't just take away what's there and expect good things to happen.
[26:01]
So there needs to be that thoughtful process. Say more about that if you would.
[26:05] SPEAKER_01:
Because if you just take away the system that people have and don't put anything in its place, we should expect it to crash and burn. I mean, I don't want to dive into the reading wars here. But this is a little bit like what happened with the whole language movement back in the 80s, where people in the whole language movement started saying things like, phonics and isolation is bad, throw away your phonics cards. And so everybody threw away their phonics cards, but they didn't replace it with anything. They didn't have authentic phonics teaching. And so there was this misconception out there that the whole language movement didn't include phonics teaching.
[26:41]
because everybody threw their phonics cards out and didn't replace it with anything. And lo and behold, it's hard for a lot of kids to learn to read if we don't give them direct and phonics instruction. So yeah, to simply say incentives are bad, take away reward chart. If we don't give teachers a replacement strategy, we should expect them to really struggle. So yeah, you can't just take the rug out from under people and expect that to work.
[27:06] SPEAKER_00:
We've left the same mindsets, the same habits, but then radically shifted the incentives by taking that away and not really having a replacement ready. So I don't want to oversimplify what could be a complex process. And I know you go into a lot more detail in the book. which is Tackling the Motivation Crisis, How to Activate Student Learning Without Behavior Charts, Pizza Parties, or Other Hard-to-Quit Incentive Systems. Mike, if you had one piece of advice for school leaders who want to make change, who see an over-reliance on these systems in their schools, they want to do something, but again, don't want to pull the rug out from under people, what would you recommend as a first action?
[27:45] SPEAKER_01:
One thing they might do if they happen to have a copy of the Tackling the Motivation Crisis book is check out some charts that are in the back of the last three chapters of the book. Each chart offers some examples of common school practices for either school leaders or individual teachers to look for to see how in line or out of line with intrinsic motivation are these different practices. So one of the chapters is all about behavior and discipline, one is all about academic engagement, and one is all about assessment and grading. And so what a school leader might do, I would suggest, is look through those charts and look for areas of strength first. Chances are there's already project-based learning going on in places in the school. chances are there are already some teachers who are building rules together with kids at the beginning of the year, which is a fantastic way to build a sense of community membership and belonging and intrinsic motivation for positive work and doing good work together.
[28:47]
So to look for strengths first can then enable a school to say, okay, here are some of the things we're already doing well, but line up with intrinsic motivation. Now let's think about What's one little shift we want to make, or what's one little change we want to make to try and continue on this path to leaning into intrinsic motivation and away from extrinsic motivation. Because I think sometimes it's way too easy to think we've got to tackle the biggest problem first. But sometimes the biggest problem, you can't, you just can't change it right away. And instead focusing on positives and then looking for some small changes. Eventually, if you do enough small changes, some of those big changes need to happen.
[29:27]
almost become mandatory. Teachers eventually say, can we please just get rid of these traditional grades? Now that we really are looking at competencies, now that we really are assessing learning and not just grading for compliance, this outdated report card no longer makes sense. And so if you're looking to make a big shift, sometimes you've got to make a whole bunch of little shifts first and then the big shift doesn't end up being that big of a shift. So I guess that's my piece of advice to school leaders is to look for strengths first and then look for small wins that won't take too much energy and that will keep really good positive momentum going in the direction you're trying to lead.
[30:04] SPEAKER_00:
So again, the book is Tackling the Motivation Crisis. I want to encourage people to check that out and see the tools that Mike talked about there. Mike Anderson, thank you so much for joining me again on Principal Center Radio. It's been a pleasure.
[30:15] SPEAKER_01:
You're welcome, Justin. You know, I'd love to come back again sometime.
[30:19] Announcer:
Thanks for listening to Principal Center Radio. For more great episodes, subscribe on our website at principalcenter.com slash radio.
