Crisis Management: Effective School Leadership to Avoid Early Burnout

[00:01] Announcer:

Welcome to Principal Center Radio, helping you build capacity for instructional leadership. Here's your host, Director of the Principal Center, Dr. Justin Bader. Welcome, everyone, to Principal Center Radio.

[00:14] SPEAKER_00:

I'm your host, Justin Bader, and I'm honored to welcome to the program Dr. Larry Dake. Larry is a district-level administrator in upstate New York and teaches in the Educational Leadership Program at Binghamton University. He's served in a variety of school and district leadership roles, and he's the author of the new book, Crisis Management, Effective School Leadership to Avoid Early Burnout.

[00:37] Announcer:

And now, our feature presentation.

[00:39] SPEAKER_00:

Larry, welcome to Principal Center Radio. Great, Justin. Thank you so much for having me. Really excited. Well, I'm excited too, because I think this is such a timely book to have the opportunity to think through some of the issues that contribute to burnout. I think you set this up so well in the book, that teaching is a stressful job, leadership is a stressful job.

[00:56]

For many of our listeners who maybe are assistant principals or principals, we kind of get the sense that the further you go up in the chain of command, The more the demands increase, the more the stress and isolation increases. And for a lot of us, we say, you know what, I'm not actually very interested in more of the hardest parts of this job. But you're right at the nexus of preparing leaders to take on those demanding leadership roles. What prompted you specifically to write Crisis Management?

[01:23] SPEAKER_01:

I think it was a couple of things, Justin. I think, first of all, the work that I've done in the Binghamton University Ed Leadership Program now for the past five years, we've had 50, 60 aspiring school leaders come through, and many have landed in jobs, and I've kept in touch with them. Working with them through those first couple of years, I think that's really a crucial stage of leadership development. You get your degree, you're excited, you land your first job. And, you know, what I found, I think, in my own career and what I found in working with some of these new leaders is the things that make or break those first couple of years are often not related to what you learned in your prep program. And that's with all due respect.

[02:00]

I mean, I teach in one of these programs, but you're a first year assistant principal or you're a mid-level district administrator. chances are you're not responsible for the budget. Chances are you're not the person who's setting the tax levy or being the point person on a very intense legal matter. You might be involved in aspects of that, but the coursework that you take, the law class, the finance class, You're not the one maybe setting the curriculum. You know, those are all, size of district is part of it, but those are all often leadership tasks that don't fall on a first, second, third year assistant principal or principal even. And so in working with some of those leaders, what I find is they get into these jobs and they don't necessarily have the background to navigate that transition from being a teacher, an individual contributor in a larger system.

[02:47]

And I know we all collaborate in professional learning communities and all that stuff. But at the end of the day, you know, most teachers still work in relative isolation with their students on their roster. And now you're making a jump to being partially responsible for that system. And that's a huge leap. And if it happens within the district in which you work, there could be some friendships impacted. If you've been in one district for a number of years, you jump to a new pond.

[03:10]

That's a different challenge. So I think all of those different ways folks enter into school leadership are challenging and sometimes are not necessarily connected to the program they just went through. If you're lucky enough to have a great mentor, if you're lucky enough to get connected to someone who can help coach you through that, that's great. Not everyone has that. And so some of those stories that are told in the book are sort of a direct result of some of those experiences that I've had and have worked with people on.

[03:35] SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I think one of the things that's the most shocking and the hardest to deal with is just the identity change that happens when you go over to the quote unquote dark side. And people say that to you, ha ha, you're going over the dark side, but they kind of mean it, right? They do.

[03:49] SPEAKER_01:

And you don't necessarily see that at first. You know, I remember vividly my first administrative job was as a curriculum coordinator in the district in which I taught. And so I had a lot of very established relationships. That day or that week that it was announced that I was taking that job, I literally had people that were at my wedding unfriend me on Facebook. And looking back on it, like, okay, 12 years later, but at that time, you're like, oh my gosh, I didn't change personally. I think I'm still a good person.

[04:18]

I know relationships are going to change somewhat. I get that. But just some of the starkness that you're hit with, you sort of lose that immediate peer group very quickly. And again, it depends on the district that you're in, the culture, the politics, all that kind of stuff. But I know in my experience, I lost that very quickly and quickly became kind of the 29, 30-year-old early administrator who really didn't have peers anymore. And so at least within that professional world, the district that I was in.

[04:46]

And so there's a sense of loss there. And I think helping people to navigate that, what does that mean? How do you rebuild relationships around this new sort of paradigm that you're in? I think that's some of the really intensive work that needs to happen for early career administrators.

[05:00] SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And I wonder if we could talk about one particular angle of that, that I know you touch on a number of times, and that is moving between districts. And for a lot of people, that seems incomprehensible. Like, why would I ever leave this district? I've always worked here. And you tell the story of different leaders who've worked in different places.

[05:15]

Is it okay to leave your district? Take us into that a little bit.

[05:18] SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I think it depends on where people are. You know, I think some leaders, you know, they go through a program, they've taught in a district for maybe 15 to 20 years, and they're very invested in that place. And again, incomprehensible to now go and apply for a principalship in another school. In public education, at least in this part of the country in public education, being opportunistic isn't necessarily a trait that people wear on their sleeve, looking for opportunities. And so that can be very, very challenging. And then there's also just that unknown.

[05:48]

I mean, a lot of folks who teach for a long period of time, they have a long runway into leadership. Maybe they've served on several committees. It may have been 15, 20 years since they've interviewed, since they've polished their resume. I mean, all those kinds of things. So I think there's a lot to say for folks who have that long runway. And I've worked with some folks that go into school leadership in their late 40s, early 50s.

[06:08]

And they're fantastic because they've experienced almost everything you can experience on a teacher level. And they still have that hat. That hat is baked into who they are. And that's so important. You know, for me personally, I taught six years and then moved into school leadership and have been in a couple of different districts since then. You know, and there's pros and cons with that.

[06:24]

You know, I know when I left my first administrative job after three years, I've been in one district for nine years, first nine years of my career and went to a neighboring district as a principal. Being the principal from day one in that district, I saw as a huge advantage. You know, people always kind of remember you're the goofy social studies teacher that, you know, dressed up as a Chinese warrior to teach about the Tang Dynasty. And that's wonderful. And that's who I was. And that was the kind of teacher that I was, you know, now to walk in and be in charge of the curriculum.

[06:51]

People are like, really, you're going to do this? You know, and so sometimes that history with people can be a very solid relational foundation point. But you still have that history. And sometimes jumping to a new pond, you sort of have to rebuild some of that. And that's a great challenge.

[07:05] SPEAKER_00:

And it's interesting to think in terms of the network piece, because obviously when you move to a new district, you are leaving behind a lot of your professional contacts, a lot of your network, and having to rebuild some of that from scratch. Do you see some advantages in having a network beyond the district you've always worked in?

[07:20] SPEAKER_01:

I certainly do. Every place that I've gone, I've always felt that you need folks with that institutional knowledge. You know, I think back on the district I was in previous to Binghamton, I was one of the assistant superintendents and my colleague, the other assistant super, had gone to that school. She had taught in that school. Her family went to that school. She's never leaving that district.

[07:39]

And that's wonderful. And I was kind of the opposite. I kind of came in and was a fresh set of eyes on everything. And so I think you need both of those things to make a district work. But being the one that then makes that leap and leaves, you bring with you other models of how districts operate. Every district does things well and every district has areas they need to improve in, regardless of what your test scores are, what your outcomes are.

[08:02]

So I think having some of those other mental models in your head can be very helpful, can prevent leaders from becoming myopic. But again, everyone's career path is different. And certainly folks that do stay in one district for their whole career or the majority of their career are going to have advantages over those that don't. But the disadvantage is that they haven't seen maybe some other things that could be possible. So I think there's pros and cons to everything, I suppose.

[08:25] SPEAKER_00:

Very well said. And I think from the district perspective, you also get that combination of stability from having people who do stick around and build that kind of institutional knowledge and the dynamism and the new blood and the new ideas that come from outside hires. So certainly good to have a mix. I wonder what you think in terms of people making a move that might feel like, you know, a step up and then a feel step sideways and then a step back and You know, like we have this picture in our heads in advance that, you know, first you're a teacher, then you're an assistant principal, then you're a principal, then you're an executive director, and then you're a superintendent. And that's the only direction that people ever travel and anything else is bad. What do you think about the different moves that people make and what shapes those and what should shape those moves?

[09:03] SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I mean, I do think we had those models in our head of being linear. You know, I know when I went through my admin program, I thought I was going to be a secondary assistant principal for five years and then maybe become a principal and then go from there. I never was an assistant principal at all, even though I tried very hard to get hired as one for a couple of summers. Yeah, I mean, I think now more than ever, I think people are looking at their situation and trying to find a good fit. And that's really what I've come to appreciate in my career. And again, talking with early career leaders, you know, not getting that first job that you apply for can be a blessing in disguise because maybe it wasn't the right fit.

[09:37]

And so, you know, I think folks making different moves, going to different districts more than ever, I hear people talking about finding the right fit. You know, none of us are creating Google apps here. Like nobody's going to get fantastically wealthy from being a superintendent. Yes, well-compensated positions in many places, But still, at the end of the day, you know, it's not like you're making professional athlete money. So finding the fit is usually more important than just pursuing positions up a chain for the sake of that. You know, and that's what I found.

[10:07]

I think especially I would say in the last five to seven years, watching moves that folks make and, you know, oftentimes phone rings like, hey, this came open. What do you think of that? I'm really curious about what your thoughts are. You know, the questions about what the fit is are usually paramount in people's minds. Now more than ever. And I think the moment that we're in with COVID and everything kind of being, at least up here, still out of whack, I think people are looking for that fit more than ever.

[10:30]

Yeah.

[10:30] SPEAKER_00:

And it's like money doesn't make up for bad fit, right? I can think of lots of situations where an additional $10,000 or $20,000 in salary totally would not have been worth it. to move into a position that wouldn't be a good fit because it's so important for your wellbeing, for your mental health, for your professional success. So if somebody is maybe in a position where they've made a move and it's progress in their career, it's a promotion, but they feel like it's not a good fit, how would you advise them to think about that? And what would you advise them to do?

[10:59] SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. One of the stories in the book, that's more or less what happened. An administrator in sort of a different part of the state that I interviewed for the book had just earned her first principalship. She had been an assistant and an associate principal for many years, young mother. So there's that. And now you're the building principal.

[11:16]

And just, I think some of her own expectations about how she wanted to lead. I think some of her community's expectations about how how available people should be, it became very clear very quickly that it was not a good fit. And maybe it would have been five years down the road or five years previous, but it wasn't now. And that person pursued a district level position in a neighboring district, in a smaller district. Probably if you're looking at it in a linear way, a step down, at least a step sideways, but the district level had some advantages for this person. You know, they're more able to move their schedule around.

[11:48]

You can much easier move meetings and for your afternoon up for doctor's appointments for your kids than you can as a principal. It's just a different workflow, you know, still busy, still stressful, but just different. And so, you know, there's a situation right there where the person finally, after many years, became a principal and almost immediately knew that it was a bad fit and a bad move. Same district this person had worked in, great relationships, highly respected, but it wasn't the right time. And so, you know, she made a move that I don't think a lot of people understood, quite frankly. You know, some of the things that we talked about when we were talking about her story, you know, people didn't understand why would you leave?

[12:25]

Why would you abandon us? You just got this job. The previous principal was here for a year and then he left. Now you're leaving. So not everyone will always understand. And I think that's just something that leaders have to grapple with and deal with.

[12:37]

I know every time that I've left one district for another, I've had people come out of the woodwork to tell me that I'm crazy. You're crazy for going there. You're crazy for leaving here. This is where people come to work. They don't leave here. Everyone's going to have their opinion about what you should do.

[12:50]

But at the end of the day, being solid with your family and having those conversations is far more important than trying to please other people's expectations.

[12:58] SPEAKER_00:

Larry, one kind of situation that I've seen play out a couple of times that I wanted to run by you while I had the chance was the situation where there's a great opportunity for an aspiring leader or somebody who's kind of on the rise, and they realize that that position has just completely unrealistic expectations for them, right? There's been some turnover. There maybe are some kind of toxic things going on among the staff, just not a great culture. And they realize that the expectations that are going to weigh on them in this role are are just completely off the charts, completely unrealistic. And for the district leaders who have seen that play out in certain schools that they're responsible for, where a leader comes in, realizes that even the most superhuman among us could do that job, what are some things that we can start to do at the district level to put stable leadership in place to make it more possible for a leader to succeed without having to be this miracle worker?

[13:51] SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, the first step in my mind would be for district leadership to recognize that's the case and to really analyze what are the resources or lack thereof that has led to this position being full of turnover or has led to leaders burning out and moving on to other positions. I think we're so often quick to just kind of as leaders, we don't have the same support network that say, at least in our state, that teachers do. Teachers have a wonderful organization of support up here. Very, very well funded, cohesive for the most part, but really, really strong. We don't have that in leadership. I'm in my 12th year now and I'm in a district right now that's starting to make some investments in leadership development, bringing in some coaches to work with different leaders.

[14:33]

I've never seen that happen in my 12 years. You go to a conference every now and again, maybe, you know, and that's pretty much it unless you take it upon yourself to engage in your own PD. So I think what are the resources and what are the supports that someone would need? Is it an outside coaching? Is it an outside voice? Or is it the dynamic of the building?

[14:52]

What does the situation look like when it comes to supporting students and families? Is there the potential for maybe a part-time assistant principal or someone else to help that leader take on more of the instructional leadership rather than just putting out fires all day? So I think it takes a real sense of owning it at the district level, because chances are that culture and that environment have been allowed to happen for many, many years. And when someone leaves, we can talk about they were a bad fit or they weren't up to the task. But then someone else comes in and experiences the same thing. You know, I think a lot of times at the district level, we have to keep in mind, and I've said this in a couple of different ways over the years, but it's not like there was a superintendent in an empty building who said, hey, I need some students.

[15:33]

And that's how school formed. You know, it formed at the one room schoolhouse level. Right. And then as things became more complex along the way, there came the need for a principal teacher or an administrative position. So administrators came at the end of this development. They weren't first.

[15:48]

And so I think we need to really hone in on the building and the classroom level and what is needed in there to help that leader be successful. Because I think you hit the nail on the head. I think when we rely on heroes and heroines to come in and fix everything, A, it's not sustainable. That person, chances are, if they're that good, they're going to get plucked to go somewhere else eventually or have those opportunities. So they're not going to be there for 10, 15 years, or they're going to go at it at a pace that's not sustainable. and they're going to self-select to go somewhere else.

[16:19]

So, you know, if we're not honest about what the systems look like, and we just rely on superhuman effort, might be a couple of years where that works, but sustainable in the long run, it won't be.

[16:29] SPEAKER_00:

Well, Larry, a lot of the book is about burnout. And I wonder if you have kind of a personal definition of burnout and some thoughts on what we can do both at the individual level for ourselves, for our own sake, as well as at the organizational level to prevent burnout among the people that we're responsible for.

[16:46] SPEAKER_01:

I think when it comes to identifying what it is, you can look up the Webster definitions and all that kind of stuff. I think it really starts to manifest itself when people start to become cynical about their own efforts, that they recognize that regardless of how hard they work on something or how much time they put in, It's not going to move the needle because of all these other factors that are going on. The loss of self-efficacy maybe is another way to describe it, where you just don't feel like the work that you're putting in is worth it, matters. Maybe you're not being recognized by someone above you or whatever the case may be. But I think there's a lot of pathways to get there. I think when it comes to avoiding it, one of the pieces I think just to put on the table is when you take these positions, you're going to be more susceptible to it, chances are, than if you would have stayed in the classroom or in those positions.

[17:32]

And it's not that those positions aren't difficult and challenging. they are now more than ever but if someone's been a teacher for 10 years they probably have some systems and some habits that work for them and now they're going to make a move into an administrative position that's going to come with all sorts of different systems and habits that need to be developed because the things that made a successful teacher sometimes are not the same things that make a successful school leader you know like i was a 33 year old elementary building principal i had teachers in my building that had taught longer than i had been alive So I'm not going into that third grade teacher's classroom and saying, let me tell you how to teach third grade. No way. You know, that would have been laughed out of the room. So I think there's, you know, that craft knowledge that you have as a teacher sometimes doesn't necessarily translate into leadership. So I think that's the first thing.

[18:17]

You're going to get more emails in these roles. There aren't contract hours, right? You've got to be at events, particularly in the first couple of years. You've got to be visible at lots of things. So I think we just need to put that on the table. I don't think this is the kind of thing where we can say, I'm going to put so many gates and barriers up around me to avoid burnout.

[18:34]

Part of the job is constantly having inputs hitting you, regardless of what position you're in. With that said, though, I do think there are some things that leaders can do. Thank you so much. I think step one would be just, we talked about fit a little bit earlier, but not trying to rush into positions for the sake of rushing into positions and setting yourself up for burnout. Because that can be part of it too. You know, if I'm a young father and I have a principalship that's 30 minutes away, PTA meetings, events, concerts, you got to be there.

[19:15]

And so you're naturally setting yourself up for some of that with those kinds of scenarios. So I think that would be number one. And then I think really reflecting upon the various habits that we develop as leaders, how we communicate, for example. Are we relying too much on email? You know, are we sending emails out and getting emails in? Or are we putting some gates around email, letting our staff know, like, listen, if you need me, I'm going to be in the building.

[19:37]

But if you email me at one o'clock, you're not going to get an answer. You know, instead of constantly feeling we have to just turn over email and turn over email and have all this hitting us all the time. So putting some gates and some barriers up around some of those things, I think, can be really helpful from a professional lens. And then I think from a personal lens, the leaders that I talked to in the books, they talked about things like exercising and eating well and all those pieces that I think do impact it. But then also taking time for themselves is important as well. Whether it's a habit of walking in the morning by yourself, listening to a podcast, I think we do need to prioritize some time alone with ourselves.

[20:11]

Because that's often when we're going to process things that are happening. I'm not an expert on brain science, but when you're not engaged mentally is often when your mind is working to sort out some of those things that are going on in your head. So one thing I always encourage leaders to do is, yes, you've got to be out there. You've got to be active. you've got to do this that but you can also carve out 20 to 30 minutes a day in your office where you just have a chance to look at your desk look at your whiteboard whatever you have and bring some sense to it bring some order to it because mentally that's going to help you you know when I was a building principal it was between the end of lunch and recess and building dismissal there was about an hour window in there and so not the entire hour but if recess went well we weren't students sitting in the office we tackled some of that stuff and put systems in place early on I could probably find 245 to 305 to kind of settle the day. Do I need to call anyone back?

[21:00]

Are we good? Dismissal's coming up. And then kind of get ready for after school. So I think trying to find some ways to prioritize your own thinking time is also really important.

[21:10] SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I think that thinking time is so important because, you know, we feel like we always have to be in motion and taking some sort of action. But I think a lot of the responsibility that we hold as leaders means that we need to be able to stop and gain some perspective and look at the situation and think. So I appreciate you emphasizing the power of that thinking time and can certainly recall many drives to and from school or meetings. You know, I didn't have a super long commute, but it was enough to give me a little bit of space to catch a breath and think and certainly valuable time. So the book is Crisis Management, Effective School Leadership to Avoid Early Burnout. And Larry, if people want to get in touch with you or learn more about the book, what are some of the best places for them to connect?

[21:47] SPEAKER_01:

The book is on Amazon, so you can just search Larry Dake on Amazon. You'll find it there. And I would say also probably Twitter is the quickest. I'm at Larry Dake, all one word, L-A-R-R-Y-D-A-K-E. So that's probably the easiest way. And, you know, like all school leaders, Twitter is something that I use to engage.

[22:04]

A lot of professional learning. I have some great folks that I follow and learn from. So it really is a tremendous learning tool.

[22:09] SPEAKER_00:

Well, Larry, thank you so much for joining me on Principal Center Radio. It's been a pleasure.

[22:12] SPEAKER_01:

Thank you, Justin.

[22:14] Announcer:

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