Trust-Based Observations: Maximizing Teaching & Learning Growth

[00:01] Announcer:

Welcome to Principal Center Radio, helping you build capacity for instructional leadership. Here's your host, Director of the Principal Center, Dr. Justin Bader. Welcome everyone to Principal Center Radio.

[00:13] SPEAKER_00:

I'm your host, Justin Bader, and I'm honored to be joined today by Craig Randall. Craig is a trainer and consultant who served as a principal, counselor, teacher, and college basketball coach with experience in schools in the Pacific Northwest and around the world. And he's the author of the new book, Trust-Based Observations, Maximizing Teaching and Learning Growth.

[00:34] Announcer:

And now, our feature presentation.

[00:37] SPEAKER_00:

Greg, welcome to Principal Center Radio.

[00:38] SPEAKER_01:

Thanks. It's nice to be here. I appreciate the opportunity.

[00:41] SPEAKER_00:

Well, I'm excited to talk with you about a new approach to teacher observations because it is certainly at the heart of instructional leadership and at the heart of what school leaders do to improve teaching and learning. And yet, there is perhaps a limited amount of thinking that goes into what we do every day. So anytime there's new thinking involved, in the field. I'm very excited to talk about it. So thanks for joining me today.

[01:06] SPEAKER_01:

Thank you. I really appreciate the chance to talk about it.

[01:09] SPEAKER_00:

Well, first of all, why trust-based? Why is trust the starting point and right in the title of your new book?

[01:15] SPEAKER_01:

Bottom line, here's what I would say, is that when there's trust, people are willing to take risks and chances. When there's not trust, people are much more reluctant to take chances. If we really want our teachers to improve, we have to put them in a position where they feel safe enough that they're willing to take chances. When they take chances, they improve. Even if they fail, eventually they're going to get better. And without trust, it just doesn't happen.

[01:40] SPEAKER_00:

Well, and what's the alternative? If we don't have that trust, if people don't take chances, what do we get instead? Because we still do the observations. We still do the feedback.

[01:49] SPEAKER_01:

I mean, I think we get the status quo and no improvement. I think not that people aren't trying and not that there aren't great ideas and people that are being innovative out there. But I mean, if you were to look at the statistics over learning, and we can argue whether the assessments that are being used for math and literacy or the appropriate assessments or whether we should have additional assessments of what does count as improvement. But right now, the statistics are saying it's not working. And actually, the Gates Foundation spent seven years and 200 million dollars on an initiative to develop a more robust evaluation process to improve the quality of teaching student learning outcomes and graduation rates and the final report that was commissioned by commissioned by them but done by the rand corporation said that there was no sustainable meaningful improvement

[02:41]

So really, that's what you get. You get just the same. So why not? Why not? I think what's happened is almost that there's been a left-brained, logical, analytical approach to if we get more strict, if we identify every area of teaching that makes for good teaching, and then we create every teacher that can do every one of these things, it's going to improve teaching. But I think we're missing that teaching is an endeavor of the heart.

[03:06]

It's art and craft, and teachers that do it and they're working with the unpredictability of developing brains at the same time of the children from little all the way through high school that they're working with. There's so much involved in it that just putting it down to these are what makes a good teacher alone isn't going to do it. If we're going to have teachers that are going to be willing to try new things, experiment feel like it's safe to try new things, then we've got to create the conditions where they know that even if they make a mistake trying something new, it's going to be okay. One of the things that I talk about is whenever I have a reflective conversation with the teacher, one of the first things I say, especially when I'm first starting new with that teacher, is that if I come into your room and you're trying something new and it bombs, The next day when we have a reflective conversation, you know you're going to get a fist bump from me because you're trying something new and it's going to eventually lead to success.

[04:05] SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and that risk-taking should produce failure sometimes, right? If we only ever see perfect lessons that go off without a hitch, that's good evidence that we're not seeing that risk-taking, right?

[04:16] SPEAKER_01:

Probably. I mean, look, a lot of times when we try new things, they are going to work. Sometimes when we try new things, though, like as a former coach, when I was to tweak someone's shot, when I help them make an adjustment in their shot, at first they'll see an implementation dip, like their shot will decrease, not be as good at first, but if they persist in it, it eventually will get better than it was originally. And I think the same thing can happen with teaching or any new endeavor we try. There can be an implementation dip, but then it will get better because we do try something. And if we're in a supported environment, we're more willing to work through the dip and not go back to our old habits.

[04:53] SPEAKER_00:

So Craig, I know you have a trust-based observation and reflection form that you sent me and people can go to your website, trustbased.com and request that if they would like a copy. How does that interact with the book and what were some of your design considerations as you developed that form?

[05:11] SPEAKER_01:

The research also says that anytime we have more than 10 elements that we're looking for, areas of pedagogy, then we begin, as observers, we begin to lose the forest through the trees. We don't see the whole lesson because we're looking to mark off each individual area. And so the Form is purposely designed to be shorter. And of course, I'm sure I'm missing things on that. But I tried to discern what I felt, admittedly, somewhat subjectively, are the top nine elements of teaching. And so having said that, because that's what I have, I have one whole chapter dedicated to the observation form and explaining its use, the effectiveness of each, and how you would use it on the form.

[05:54]

At the same time, if someone felt like that didn't work and they wanted to use something else or trade in one or out, that's up to each individual principal or school or district to decide. I think one of the first things, if you look at the form, and obviously the listeners aren't able to see it, but one of the first things is when you look at the form, the first things that are on there, because it's an observation and reflection form, the first thing that's listed is actually the reflection questions. And so I put those on the top really through trial and error because I realized when I didn't put them on the top, I wouldn't ask the questions first. And so when I have them there, I think one of the key elements with the form and the model is one area to build trust as opposed to me as the observer talking and telling you about the observation immediately. It's about me. listening and having you reflect and talk to me.

[06:39]

So my demonstrating respect for you as a professional. And so we have the questions, which are guided by the two questions that have really been with me for 10 years now are, what were you doing to help students learn? And if you had to do over again, what, if anything, might you do differently? So that's the first element is having the questions first. And then really, it's just like, I mean, learning targets and I mean, relationships management, it just works its way down through Just really basic elements of good practice. One thing I can add about the form, though, that I think is pretty cool is that it's also a teacher resource form.

[07:12]

And so under each category, I've listed like what are specific strategies that you might expect to see as an observer of a teacher doing in that in that when you see that form. like relationships happening or management happening or questioning happening and so that helps me as an observer to use specific language when i'm writing down what i'm observing but in addition it's actually there's a clickable link under each uh i call them toolboxes so toolbox possibilities and within that then for both observers and teachers If you want to get better at something, I can immediately use the form because it's sent to the teachers immediately after the reflective conversation. So they can use it to improve as well, which I think is a nice little bonus.

[07:57] SPEAKER_00:

So Craig, you say in the book that you believe observations need to be short, continuous, frequent, and unannounced. And I think if our friend Kim Marshall were here with us, he would agree on all counts that as instructional leaders, we need to be in classrooms, we need to be in classrooms frequently, and it works best if people don't know we're coming. Why do you think that it's important for observations to be unannounced?

[08:27] SPEAKER_01:

Look, I think it's just human nature, even with the best of the best of us, that if I know what's coming, I'm going to put a little extra effort into it. And so therefore, is what I'm seeing as an observer the actual most accurate portrait of teaching. And if we're going to support growth, then I think it's really important that we do provide the most accurate indicator of what teaching is. So that's one element is so that we're seeing an accurate indicator of teaching. This has been an interesting point that teachers have brought up to me is that many teachers have told me they actually like that they don't know that it's coming because it keeps them on their toes, sort of an intermittent reinforcement. So it makes them stay on their A game as if it were all the time.

[09:06]

So that's another bonus of it as well.

[09:08] SPEAKER_00:

And I think for a lot of people, there is historically a fear that if I don't know that my observation is coming, it's very high stakes, it's going to be stressful. And of course, Murphy's Law says that my principle is going to come at the worst possible time and see the worst possible lesson where everything has gone wrong and you know, it's just not a realistic sample of my practice. And I think that kind of gets us to a second characteristic that we just discussed, which is the idea of frequency. Because if people have multiple chances to be observed, then that feeling of, oh, this is high stakes, I have to be perfect, kind of dissipates a bit. What are your thoughts on frequency?

[09:51] SPEAKER_01:

Well, I do think it's continuous. I do think that every teacher ought to be evaluated. I know sometimes districts call for plans where teachers can be an alternative, but I think it's important that every teacher is observed, one, because it sends a message of, to me, a level of equality, but also sometimes our strongest teachers that might be in those other plans, we can see really amazing things from those teachers that we can use as strengths to have them lead professional development and empower our other teachers. So that's an important part of continuous and frequent is seeing everyone. But for me, frequent means, and this has been trial and error, is 12 visits a week, three visits on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday, followed by three follow-up visits on Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday. And you just keep cycling through, cycling through.

[10:36]

And so depending on the size of your staff, and then if you and or assistant principals, if you have them and our coaches are doing it, people are being seen regularly. certainly once a month if you're the only person in most situations and more than that. And so I think one of the key elements of frequent is we want it to be frequent enough so that when we do get to the point where we talk about a growth suggestion and an opportunity for growth, and a teacher begins to implement it. The last visit and the new visit with whatever we're trying is close enough that we can both remember and then have a reflective conversation to help guide tweaks. And if we think about maybe a more traditional once or twice a year model, how months later can either one of us truly help support growth if we can't really remember the last visit very

[11:23] SPEAKER_00:

Well, let's talk about the role of evidence a bit, because obviously, you know, being in the classroom, having things to write down, you know, being the observer gives us access to evidence so that what we're talking about is not just our philosophy, but is actually based on what we're seeing. What are some of your thoughts and recommendations when it comes to evidence of practice?

[11:44] SPEAKER_01:

So research, there's a man named Matt O'Leary out of Great Britain who's done a lot of research. I would guess he's probably the most authoritative person in the world on observation and evaluation. And so what he's discovered is as soon as we start to evaluatively rate or grade teachers, that causes them to play it safe. And so one of the things that the book calls for or Trust-Based Observations calls for is is to eliminate the rating of pedagogy. That doesn't mean we still don't have a rubric, but it's used more for self-assessment by the teachers. And so because we're not rating the pedagogy, we're just writing what we see.

[12:25]

So we're not giving it a score of one, two, three, four, because as soon as we start to do that in the reflective conversations, the teachers tend to focus on on that level and maybe don't hear compliments as much. So we just notice that we see it and as opposed to the level of it. And we can talk about a strengths level of it, but really it's about noticing strengths of what you see. And granted, on occasion you have to look for it more, but it's really about building relationship, building trust, building safety. So then when it does come time to offering a suggestion on an area that you might notice would, if you were to give it a rating, might be a lower level. they're more open to working with you on improving that area because we haven't built in that play it safe, fearful mode.

[13:09] SPEAKER_00:

Let's talk a little bit more about suggestions because if I think back on my personal experience as a principal, when you first start out in a role and get to know the grade levels that are taught within that school and the curriculum that's taught within the school, and I often found myself struggling to really make a suggestion and ended up just trying to get the teacher to kind of talk enough that they came to their own suggestion. What's been your experience when it comes to suggestions and how those are received and how to get people to really take action to improve?

[13:43] SPEAKER_01:

Okay, so I'm going to back that up just a little bit and say that I think like even in the traditional model where if I start to make suggestions right away, I think the big risk with that is we're seeing teachers so rarely that we could make a suggestion on something that we just didn't see that day that might actually be an amazing strength. And so one of the areas that trust-based observations calls for, and it's about... building relationship, but it's also about making sure we really, really get to know our teachers, is when you start new with the program, at least the first three visits, I only offer strengths. I don't offer any suggestions.

[14:19]

And even if teachers ask for it before then, I just say, look, I'm still getting to know you. I just think it's sort of arrogant of me to start offering suggestions before I really get to know you as a teacher. So I want to throw that out there first. And so then I agree completely with what you're saying. If you can phrase something or ask a question that gets the teacher to identify it themselves first, then that's even easier to win the battle. Although I'll say if you've built the trust up, I find that they're more willing to be open to what you have to say anyway.

[14:50]

I think though, even the phrasing of how we say things is important. And so I think for me in trust-based observations, it's about like, hey, I have a suggestion or would you like to hear a suggestion? It's asking permission first before we do that. And only one time if I not had a teacher say, okay. And then I just waited and said, okay. And then a couple of visits later, I went ahead and did because it just took that teacher longer to feel trust.

[15:17]

And so I think, Just waiting and being patient and asking permission is a big piece of the puzzle. But then even then, when you're prepared to offer a suggestion, we have to be prepared as principals to immediately then have a game plan for how we're going to support that. whether that's having preloaded or pre-ready some of the articles or suggestions from those toolbox possibilities, or whether it's having previously enlisted the support of an in-house expert in that particular area of pedagogy or being prepared already to know that I can send that teacher to a training. If we're going to offer a suggestion, For it to really work best, it has to be fully supported with an action plan ahead of time for how we're going to be able to support that teacher if we really, really want it to have the best chance of making an improvement.

[16:08] SPEAKER_00:

Now, I don't know if this has ever happened to you, Craig, but I have had situations where I felt like I had a really, really good suggestion, and then the other person said, oh, yeah, definitely. I'm just going to run with that. I'm going to do that. Absolutely. Great idea. Thank you so much.

[16:24]

And I left the conversation thinking, I'm not actually sure that that's what's going to happen here. So when we leave the room and have that assurance that we've given good feedback and that it will be acted upon, what can happen? What are the different scenarios that can occur there? Because I think I'm not alone in feeling like sometimes those suggestions are given lip service, they're validated. So it feels good to have given that feedback, but not knowing if it's going to actually translate into action. What are your thoughts?

[16:58] SPEAKER_01:

So in a situation like that, I think one that's frustrating, of course, and even to have that worry leaving your head when you leave, that's probably an indicator that there's something going on that's interfering with that teacher truly being open to what you have to say. And so if we think about safety and trust, I think the deepest line is probably if there's something still there. something that's blocking that growth or that willingness to allow themselves. Like, I don't know if you've read Brene Brown much, but in Daring Greatly, she talks about vulnerability and how vulnerability is a good thing. But I think we have to lower the vulnerability enough that they're willing to take that risk. And so a lot of times that's still not there for whatever reason.

[17:42]

It could be their own developmental issues with the steam or whatever, or just not enough time for them to trust you yet. And so I think we have to be cognizant of that and and patient and tolerant and empathetic. And we have to use our emotional intelligence. And I think it's fair though, then to come back to it the next visit and say just politely and gently that I didn't really see that. And again, but be prepared then to offer the specifics of the support along with that at the same time. So, I mean, what the exact answer to that could be in terms of sending to a training or the specifics of of the help could vary, but that's my best answer, I guess, to that.

[18:21]

Sometimes, and to me, this is a cause for concern, is I will see teachers and we will talk about what's going on. And oftentimes to me, this tends to relate mostly to a management issue, which is a concerning issue in and of itself. Maybe not so much with a younger teacher that's still developing that.

[18:43]

But we'll see teachers that they'll have that issue, but then they'll choose or they'll say yes, but then you'll really see them want to work on something else instead. And that's a sign to me, at least experientially, of a bigger concern that might end up going down a path to an improvement plan or whatever. And we have to be prepared eventually to take those routes if we don't. I mean, even though it's trust-based observations, we...

[19:10]

And it's about growth. At some point, if we're not getting that with all of our, using all of our best caring persons to offer that support, then we have to go to next steps like in anything else.

[19:21] SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely. And I want to make sure we do talk about some of those next steps. And I appreciate your thoughts on the importance of follow-through, that we do have to come back. We have to actually say, I'm back. How did it go? What did you do based on last time we talked?

[19:37]

And my conclusion from getting that reaction once in a while of, oh, yeah, sure, that sounds great, but then no follow-through, is that people had been conditioned to expect no follow-through from their instructional leader. They'd been accustomed to kind of playing a game of, oh yes, I smile and nod. I agree with the feedback. I validate the principle for giving me the feedback, but we both know I'm never going to see you again until this time next year. And really it is about building that expectation. And as you say, building that trust that, hey, I'm actually going to be back.

[20:10]

We are actually going to talk about this again. And that's what starts to shift that culture and that mindset of, Feedback is not just a game that we play to check a box, but it's a real conversation about practice.

[20:22] SPEAKER_01:

And if people have had, I mean, I've definitely had teachers that have said, I've seen you more in this year than I've had people see in my whole career. Teachers that have been teaching 10 or 12 years. I mean, that's a problem with our system when that happens. It takes time to build trust with these teachers. In the plan, in the trust-based system, I actually, we talk about reading things and it's not just, it's not all, like teaching is art and craft, right? Observing is art and craft as well.

[20:49]

And if I sense that a teacher is not fully aware trusting yet, I'm going to wait to offer that suggestion. And I will give it, and this might sound crazy, but think of a teacher's had 10, 12 years of just having what you were describing. And now we're trying to build a trusting relationship where we do want accountability. And it's going to take that teacher a long time to see the difference and really start to trust that you are there for them in a positive, not out to get you away. So I suggest if your gut is telling you like, oh, I don't know if they're ready for this, I will wait up into a whole year. By that point in time, I think, okay, that's fair.

[21:23]

I've demonstrated for a year and then we'll start to take it and then have follow-up conversations and go wherever it needs to go after that. But depending on where a teacher is from and how long they've been, it's not unreasonable to expect that it would take them a while to really believe that that your genuine care for them and improving their teaching and learning in a positive mindset is real.

[21:44] SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, especially if we consider how many people have been maybe burned by a feedback conversation in the past or a supervisor that maybe they felt was out to get them for no good reason.

[21:55] SPEAKER_01:

When I was just anecdotally, when I was writing the book, I would ask teachers about their observation process and how many of them felt like their observers were there to be supportive. between the general range of where people said is they would say between one third and two thirds of their principles were not supportive in the observation process. I only had one person say an answer as low as 10%. Everyone else was in that one third to two third range. So that means they've all had them. Sometimes they've had a lot of them.

[22:24]

Some of them probably had the whole career of that. It takes time when they've been conditioned, like you said, to experience either not support or the obligatory once a year, let's check it off, even though you and I both know it's a joke mindset that does exist out there.

[22:40] SPEAKER_00:

And I think those numbers come from a felt need among administrators to prove themselves intelligent and competent and having something valuable to say in any given observation. But one of the, I think, more humbling experiences I had as I became a principal and did lots of observations was the realization that I don't always have something helpful to say. Sometimes I'm going to see a lesson, it's going to be great. I'm going to be able to say that it was great and how it was great, but I'm not always going to have some sort of brilliant piece of feedback. And I think teachers know when a lesson is good and they know when our feedback is getting nitpicky because we need something to say, we need to look smart. And they feel the very real consequences of that.

[23:26]

And I think probably every teacher has been in that situation a little bit, if maybe not many times, but at least at some point in their career where the administrator just needs something to say, I think we've got to be mindful of that.

[23:38] SPEAKER_01:

And what does that do to build trust? That erodes trust when we do that. I mean, really, if we're talking about something little, what's the point? If we're going to really talk about growth and improvement, let's save our suggestions for something big. And also, let's make sure if it's something big, then we're not overloading them and giving them really more than probably one big thing to work on on a time if we really want improvement. We don't want that new initiative overload because where do we go then?

[24:01]

Nowhere, because we're so spread out between different areas of growth that we aren't able to focus enough to really end up being productive in it. So I agree with you completely that I mean, I've seen tons. I mean, these are 20-minute observations. I've seen tons of 20-minute observations where, I mean, I suppose I could have nitpicked and thought of something, but honestly, there's nothing that I would change. And remember, one of the two questions is, if you were to reteach that I asked the teachers is, If you were to reteach the lesson, what, if anything, might you do differently? And I always have thrown in there, might do differently.

[24:37]

Because, and I tell them too, it's okay if you feel like your lesson was good and there isn't anything. And granted, there have been times when people have felt like there wasn't, and I thought there were. But in the interest of building the relationship, what's the point in saying that they were wrong? That doesn't help us in the long run. If our bottom line is improving teaching and learning, then every action is And that's where emotional intelligence plays such a key role in this, has to be designed towards what's going to get me to, what's going to help me to find the best way to help that teacher to improve so our students improve.

[25:10] SPEAKER_00:

Well, let's do talk a bit about those kind of higher stakes situations where we do see some pretty urgent issues. We do see some big needs for improvement in a certain teacher's practice and maybe a specific area or maybe even across the board. And we don't feel like we have a year or two to build trust and to allow the teacher to lead the conversation. You know, if I see something that really does urgently need to change, I'm I still want to build trust, but at the same time, I'm not going to just hope in the future that the teacher will trust me. We've got to move on this. What are some recommendations that you have for leaders who have a teacher who's in that situation, who really needs to make some big changes quickly?

[25:48] SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely. And I think you're going to see this oftentimes. My wife's a new teacher mentor, so she works with first-year teachers all the time. And management is such a big issue with first-year teachers. And so we have the rules, but the rules are always...

[26:02]

with the caveat that unless I'm urgently concerned about the safety or wellbeing of the class or functioning of any learning going on whatsoever. And, and I think luckily most, but not all new teachers are going to be more open to growth just because of where they're at in their careers. And so we do jump in in those situations and help. And maybe that's bringing in the instructional coach. Maybe that's bringing in, if you're lucky enough to have new teacher mentors, like my wife's district does. And, and my wife will stand up like right beside that teacher and, and, when a teacher says something wrong, she'll like kind of whisper to the teacher and she'll say it again right then the new way.

[26:34]

And so we do whatever we have to, to take, you know, that's a new teacher situation, but there's certainly times when it's not a new teacher where we have to do the same thing and, and action plans are okay. They're there to help support teachers. And whenever we do have an action plan, I always go into it again with the same positive attitude that I hope, you know, six months from now, we're laughing and talking about what an amazing thing, transformation and growth you've made in that situation. But I think getting back to your issue with observer accountability for themselves, I think one of the toughest issues is that it's human nature to When we have a conflict situation, that fight or flight part of our brain tends to freak out a little bit. And whenever we envision that conversation, it's very normal for our minds to imagine that conversation going in the worst possible direction.

[27:29]

Right. I don't know if you've had that happen, but I mean, I've had tons of these conversations and I still my mind and it's that protective device. Right. So if I imagine my mind imagines the worst thing, then maybe I'm a little more prepared for it. But I think what we have to realize is that that's there to protect us. But when we do take the chances, rarely, rarely will it ever get to that point.

[27:53]

And so we can't let that fear that pops into our head interfere with what we have to do to support that teacher's growth, even if it's a more drastic effort to support their growth.

[28:05] SPEAKER_00:

Well, Craig, I appreciate the fresh thinking that you've brought to this topic. And just as I was excited to get my hands on the second edition of Kim Marshall's book, Rethinking Teacher Supervision and Evaluation, just as I was excited to put some of my own thoughts on paper, I am so excited to see you put trust-based observations out into the world. So Craig, if people want to learn more about the book, learn more about your work and potentially get in touch with you, where's the best place for them to go online to find you?

[28:34] SPEAKER_01:

They can go to TrustBase.com. That's the website. And so that works. My Twitter handle is TrustBaseCraig. And you can email me at Craig at TrustBase.com.

[28:47]

And if I can, just because I want to give back a little bit, one of the things that TrustBase offers is one free week-long training per year to a school or school district. And the only requirement is there has to be at least a 50% free or reduced lunch population. And so anybody that wants to can go to the website and apply and might win that for their school.

[29:13] SPEAKER_00:

So the book is Trust-Based Observations, Maximizing Teaching and Learning Growth. Craig Randall, thanks so much for joining me on Principal Center Radio. Thank you, Justin. I really appreciate it.

[29:23] Announcer:

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